Any regular reader of this blog will know that one of my favorite manga series is Akimi Yoshida’s 1980s shojo epic, Banana Fish.
I’ve spent quite a bit of effort attempting to persuade readers to check it out, so just imagine my joy when a few of my favorite manga bloggers agreed to indulge me in an ongoing roundtable discussion of the series!
Joining me here are Michelle Smith (Soliloquy in Blue), Khursten Santos (Otaku Champloo), Connie (Slightly Biased Manga), Eva Volin (Good Comics For Kids), Robin Brenner (No Flying, No Tights), and Katherine Dacey (The Manga Critic). Each of these women writes about manga for multiple blogs and other online publications (despite the fact I’ve listed only one each here) and their combined knowledge and experience is, frankly, pretty intimidating if you let yourself ponder it for too long.
This roundtable will convene every two months, covering two volumes at a time. This month, we discuss volumes one and two. If you’d like to follow along, check out my list of suggestions for getting your hands on this (often) hard-to-find series.
On to the roundtable!
MJ: As someone late to the manga scene, I picked up the first few volumes of Banana Fish based entirely on the opinions of others. From Shaenon Garrity to Frederik Schodt, the one thing everyone seemed to agree on was that Banana Fish was unlike any other shojo manga series they’d read, which was a big selling point for me at the time. Even then, once I started reading, it wasn’t quite what I’d expected.
What first drew you to take a look at this series, and what kept you reading after the first volume or two? If you’re reading the series now for the first time, are the first two volumes what you expected?
Khursten: I will be honest that the reason I picked up Banana Fish around 9 years ago was because Gackt said in an interview that his favorite manga was Banana Fish.
Don’t judge me, but I can at least say that Gackt had some taste in his manga.
So, I got a little star struck by some J-rock idol and my friends who have gone to Japan picked it up from his advice and never stopped talking about it. I too became curious that when a friend came home carrying her volumes of Banana Fish, I had to read it. My Japanese was screwed up back then but what kept me reading were the terrified faces of the soldiers in the first chapter. I remember saying to my friend “What the hell is happening here?”
And page by page she explained a strange story of this crazy drug and how some punks in New York may have been caught in between. Even without their narration, I pretty much knew what was happening. Akimi Yoshida’s art was very expressive that it was hard not to miss that you were bound for something very interesting after the first volume. I knew I had to read the next. And the next one after. I believe I slept over in that friend’s house to try to read something I couldn’t even understand entirely.
Of course I can read it now, but yeah, that was how I first crossed Banana Fish.
Michelle: I got into manga around the time the Shojo Edition of Banana Fish came into print. I was collecting a lot of books from that imprint (Please Save My Earth, Basara, Revolutionary Girl Utena…) but somehow Banana Fish never really appealed to me. I hate to admit it might’ve been the bruised-fruit look of its cover design. Eventually, though, I read enough praise that I decided to check it out.
I have not read the whole series. Indeed, I’ve barely only begun. I will say that when I was rereading volume one in preparation of this roundtable I was struck by how seinen-y this whole setup is. I must’ve read a lot of seinen between my original read and now, because it seemed more obvious this time that the whole plot could really work in a seinen epic written by Naoki Urasawa or something. It’ll be interesting to see how Yoshida manages to make it work as shojo.
Connie: To be honest, I wasn’t drawn to the series at all initially. Banana Fish was the least interesting-sounding series in Pulp, a magazine I wanted to read but was too young to mail-order. As a 16-year-old who was inhaling Ranma 1/2 and Sailor Moon, a series about a gay gang leader engaging in some sort of mob struggle over a mystery drug wasn’t high on my list of must-reads. When it hopped ship mid-series to Animerica Extra, a magazine featuring super-girly shojo that I did read every month, I was so angry about the bad fit that I swore I would never read it.
That was awhile ago. Hearing the near-constant praise Banana Fish receives as a shojo classic and just how unlike anything else it is, I was interested enough to finally give it a try. I think it was the banter the characters had going amongst themselves that intrigued me the most in the first couple volumes. The adaptation is excellent, and I could see the first volume being very tedious without all that color added to the plentiful expository dialogue. I also liked the humanizing detail of Eiji and Ibe being able to walk into a New York street gang hideout to ask questions. As hilariously unlikely as that is, it does a good job of making Ash and his gang the good guys. By the second volume, the action from the story proper had really hooked me. There really wasn’t anything girly about it at all in the early volumes, and that did take me by surprise, because I was expecting a little more concession to the audience in the early volumes.
Kate: The first time I tried to read Banana Fish, I found it talky and ridiculous — sort of like reading a manga version of The Equalizer, only with preposterously named characters who never took the subway. Ask a New Yorker: only Beyonce and Donald Trump ride everywhere in cars!
Revisiting Banana Fish in 2010, I have a better sense of where it fits into the literature, as yet another work — like Pineapple Army — that explores the role of guns, drugs, and gangs in urban America. (Or, perhaps more accurately, as yet another work that portrays American cities as a lawless wilderness.) I also have a better appreciation for the story itself. Banana Fish is wildly ambitious, introducing dozens of characters and a half-dozen major plot lines in the first two volumes alone, all while raising questions about the drug culture of the Vietnam War and child prostitution. Matt Thorn and Carl Horn really do Akimi Yoshida a solid with an adaptation that, as Connie notes, transforms an exposition-heavy script into a series of little character sketches. If anything, the dialogue was what hooked me the second time around.
Michelle: Oh man, the names! I probably wasn’t supposed to giggle when Ash revealed his real name so dramatically.
MJ: Heh, luckily I’d had the humor of Ash’s name revealed to me by Shaenon Garrity’s post, so I saw it coming. Kate, I think I like “talky” when it’s done right. Good dialogue is my greatest weakness, and I loved the dialogue in Banana Fish immediately. I can definitely understand why that would have hooked you this time around.
Eva: Like you, MJ, I first became aware of Banana Fish after reading Shaenon Garrity’s Overlooked Manga Festival. This was back when I was desperately trying to learn as much about manga as I could, as fast as I could, and Shaenon’s blog introduced me to books I couldn’t find at my local Borders.
God, I miss that blog.
Anyway, imagine my pleasant feeling of surprise when, right after reading that blog entry, I wandered into the manga library at a local con and found the entire Banana Fish series … except for one volume. Gah! Because volume 6 was missing and I’m the kind of person who has to have the whole story delivered in chronological order, I only read up through volume 5. Now, years later, having re-read volumes 1 and 2, it’s clear I’ve forgotten pretty much everything. So, I’ll be our token Banana Fish baby. It’s all new to me.
MJ: Connie, I love that your initial reaction to Banana Fish‘s lack of girly-ness was so negative, while I can honestly say that’s exactly why I was interested in it to start. It’s funny when I consider my tastes now, but when I first started reading manga I could not muster any interest in shojo manga at all and believed I never would. So Banana Fish lured me in by being different than what I thought of (at the time) as shojo while also tapping into my inner teen with similarities to all those S.E. Hinton novels (The Outsiders, Rumble Fish, etc.) I was obsessed with back in junior high. What I discovered, ultimately, was that it was both much more complex than the novels I read as a teen and also somewhat more representative of shojo manga than I’d realized at the time. More on that probably once we get into to later volumes.
Khursten, I think your Gackt story is my favorite so far!
Michelle, when you answered this question at first, I think you’d only read the first volume. Do you feel any differently about the tone of the series now that you’ve read volume two? I think once Ash and Eiji start really interacting, the series takes on a warmth that makes it feel much more like a shojo manga to me. Did you experience this shift at all?
Kate: My shojo manga journey followed a similar trajectory to yours, MJ: for a long time I eschewed what I perceived to be the “girly stuff” in favor of action-oriented series. When I first encountered Banana Fish, however, I found it wanting in comparison with some of the seinen titles I was reading at the time, e.g. Crying Freeman and Old Boy. Banana Fish seemed tame, with characters explaining themselves when common sense seemed to dictate that they ought to be throwing punches, firing guns, or running like hell. (Is “more speedlines” the manga equivalent of “more cowbell”? If so, that would have been my critique: “more speedlines!”) The second time around, it’s this very mixture of introspection and action that appeals to me. The characters struck me as much more real than anything I encountered in, say, Kazuo Koike, motivated by complex and sometimes contradictory agendas, rather than a pure, uncomplicated desire for revenge.
Robin: I had a rather roundabout journey to hearing about Banana Fish. I had only just begun to read manga. My first manga was Mars by Fuyumi Soryo read simultaneously with Clover by CLAMP in the old Tokyopop editions, so I’d certainly started out in the school of shojo. I then delved into Sanami Matoh’s FAKE, which rather blew my mind in being about cops who were solving crimes and also (gasp!) gay. (Or as gay as anyone ever is in yaoi.) I was curious if there were more such stories, and in my internet searching, I recall someone recommending Banana Fish as a sort-of yaoi, and as a compelling crime drama. I’m a procedural fangirl, so I was totally on board with the crime aspect, although mafia stories don’t always appeal to me. I read the first couple of volumes via my library, and while I enjoyed it a lot, I remember being put off by reading fan reviews that hinted that the potential relationship between Ash and Eiji was not heading to a good place. I remember being annoyed as I was in the mood for more fantasy a la FAKE, and not really urban drama. That being said, I appreciated that Banana Fish was a crime drama first, not a romance, as I’d been hoping for something much more realistic than FAKE ever pretended to be in its actual police work.
I also remember learning, and I believe this was the case, that Banana Fish ran in both a shojo magazine (Betsucomi) and an adult, guy-oriented magazine (Pulp, although this was here in the US) at the same time. This fascinated me. The idea of appealing to both audiences at once intrigued me, as I am a woman who likes a lot of ostensibly manly media (Blade Runner, Fight Club, and so on). However, that kind of tale is certainly not a crossover US media creators often pursue or even acknowledge. Manly men and teenage girls liking the same sort of story? Impossible!
Now that I’ve gotten into the first two volumes, I am pleased to say that it’s holding up very well, especially in that it’s reminding me of all of the excellent crime serials I’ve loved: Homicide: Life on the Street (the original book and the TV series both) and OZ (volume two is giving me flashbacks to the joys of watching OZ!.)
Kate and Connie, I thoroughly agree that the translation and adaptation are wonderful (and I admit I flipped open the title page this time around and immediately said to myself, “Oh, Carl Horn and Matt Thorn! Of course it’ll be good!”). They manage the slang and banter very well, and with a smart eye for allowing the slightly fantastical image of US gang warfare and the mafia still linger despite keeping the language more in a style we all expect from our pulp crime stories.
MJ, I too immediately thought of S. E. Hinton — she was, no doubt, writing The Outsiders from her own experiences hanging out with greasers. At the same time, The Outsiders is full of language that screams girl perspective. The number of times she has those characters express their feelings, and rhapsodize over each other’s physical beauty. The Outsiders is true to the idea of street gangs while offering a romantic, emotionally driven story, hence it’s strong girl appeal. Now, I don’t want to discredit the appeal to boys as well, or to somehow belittle the idea that men can talk about their feelings and/or admit their friends are physically beautiful. Nonetheless, I feel like that openess between men is only now becoming more acceptable, whereas even when I was a teen it was an odd thing for a straight guy to admit his best friend just might be attractive.
In that way, I think Banana Fish is very shojo simply in the internal lives it gives its characters. I read a whole discussion that distinction that makes shojo manga shojo as a genre is the fact that characters spend a lot more time than they ever do in shonen or seinen thinking. Their internal monologues are epic, and on every page, so that even when it’s a storyline that doesn’t seem girly, the emotional life of the character makes the tale shojo. I’d never really noticed this particular aspect of defining a manga as shojo, but I think that’s spot on. We girls do like our rich character development.
MJ: Since Connie brought up Eiji, that segues nicely into my next question. The success of this series, even from the very first volume, depends very much on the immediate bond formed between Ash and Eiji. One thing I’ve been impressed with each time I read the series is how effectively Yoshida pulls this off. Do you agree, and if so, what do you attribute this to?
Michelle: I touched on both these questions in my review of volume two, which I did finish and write about after my first response, so I’ll kind of be plagiarizing myself here. I definitely get more of a shojo feeling now because, in addition to showing us how much of a badass Ash is, there’s an equal emphasis on how very broken he is. He’s distrustful and obsessively self-reliant, and there are only hints about why. So, to revise my initial opinion, it’s shojo with a liberal dose of seinen seasoning.
I can’t put my finger on what makes Ash and Eiji bond so immediately. Eiji admires Ash, that’s for certain, and feels honor-bound after certain events to help him out. I think Ash responds to that honor, not to mention Eiji’s ingenuity and bravery, as well as to Eiji’s absolute lack of a hidden agenda, which is something extremely rare in Ash’s world.
Khursten: Something like love at first sight, right? I completely agree and I feel that it’s Yoshida’s intention to make these two guys hit it off almost immediately. In a way that’s very shojo isn’t it? The two main characters coming together and making a connection. She built the two characters as though they complemented each other.
First we have the young punk Ash who seem to know his in and out of the city. And then there’s Eiji, the innocent assistant, who was trying to get a grasp of the world. The first few chapters in the first volume was an exposition of Ash’s world and like Eiji, we couldn’t help but be drawn to his brashness. It may have been a job for Eiji but there was a curiosity in how different they were even if they were both young. Ash was magnetic this way and after that hostage thing, I felt it was only natural for Eiji to step up a little. Is it his pride as a man? Maybe it’s his survival instinct. Either way, it was impressive enough to catch Ash’s attention. Suddenly, another kid who’s got the smarts. If Yoshida had drawn this more shojo, I’m quite sure there was a ‘dokidoki’ moment, a heart throbbing second there.
And lol. Thanks MJ. My youth was in many ways embarrassing like this.
Forgive me, I could also be just a fujoshi speaking here. orz. And I also have a bit of a question in relation to the first one. You guys are free to answer it as well.
I come from the Philippines so perhaps my initial experience with Banana Fish may be completely different compared to others. But based on what most of you said, am I correct in saying that before reading the comic, most of you were well aware that it was a shojo title? Did that set your expectations as a reader? Did you read the comic expecting familiar shojo elements in it? And to this day, did you read the first two volumes of Banana Fish in the context of shojo? I’ve read Connie’s and partly Michelle’s, but I’m interested to hear from the others who pretty much had that same experience. I first read this manga not knowing what genre it was so it was very fresh to me with little expectations beyond wanting know why it was Gackt’s favorite.
Michelle: I am exceptionally anal about knowing what demographic a manga series is—not for any particular reason except a need to categorize it correctly on my blog and in LibraryThing—so it’s highly unlikely I’d ever start something without knowing that it’s shojo. Like MJ, I knew that it was atypical, so I didn’t really have many expectations other than I figured it would have an involved plot.
Eva: Huh. I didn’t get a “love at first sight” vibe at all from the first two volumes. For me, Ash doesn’t mind Eiji being around because Eiji doesn’t need Ash to be anything other than a curiosity. Ash is the celebrity to Eiji’s paparazzi. Eiji’s there on assignment and he’s going to be leaving, so their relationship is supposed to be temporary and finite. Ash can afford to let him get close because, unlike the local guys, Eiji’s no threat to him or to his goals. Even during the attack and kidnapping, Ash is more concerned for Skip than he is for Eiji. It’s not until Eiji proves that he’s able to think under fire — and is willing to sacrifice himself to save the group — that he begins to notice that Eiji might be more than just another hanger-on.
MJ: Like Eva, I didn’t see Ash and Eiji as “love at first sight.” I’m only half (maybe 3/4?) with Eva on the reason, though. I think there is an immediate affinity and a kind of immediately established trust (or the seed of such) that is at least as rare, maybe more so. I think Eiji’s deep innocence is obvious to Ash from the beginning which makes him not a threat. I also think Ash probably never met anyone like that in his life (Skip was the closest, and Ash had an unusual bond with him as well) so in a way, Eiji is as much a curiosity to him as he is to Eiji. “Curiousity” is not quite the word. I think Ash is drawn to that kind of innocence, whether he’d admit it or not. I think by writing Skip in the way she did–establishing that side of Ash from the beginning in a really organic way–Yoshida made it possible for us to believe that Ash would want to be around someone like Eiji. I think it’s kind of brilliant, really.
Robin: I fall more into MJand Eva’s group in that I didn’t see the immediate connection as love, but rather as a strings-free moment of connection. I think, MJ, you hit the nail on the head when you said Eiji’s lack of hidden agenda makes him refreshing to Ash (hence why he allows him to handle his gun…and I mean not unfortunate pun there…argh!)
I think a lot of this series (even though I’ve only read the first two volumes!) works on this fascination audiences have with one, extreme situations, and two, homosocial environments. This may be my overly educated brain working on overtime here, but I think many readers are drawn to experiencing drastic situations via fiction and fantasy. Banana Fish, like OZ or similar crime dramas, takes a bunch of men, traps them in a very strict, honor-bound setting, and investigates how they interact, and how their emotions work both for and against them. The more rules there are, the more heightened the drama, and the more dangerous the situation is, the more romance (and I mean that not necessarily in a sexy sort of way, but in an escapist sort of way.) There’s the appeal of a trial by fire — what would YOU do if you ended up in the middle of a gang war? Would you step up? Would you cower in a corner? The most interesting characters are those that find themselves in situations like that, for better or worse, and Ash and Eiji are both poised to have their lives change by this beginning.
Khursten: Lol. I suppose the love at first sight is really my fujoshi vision acting up. lol. But awesome point MJ on how Ash is also drawn to that kind of innocence. I do wonder if it’s his whole gang leader/older brother in him or in a way it’s a childhood, an innocence he wanted to protect.
Connie: I read Eiji the same way Eva did, that he and Ash had a short-term working relationship at first. I read Eiji as more of a foil to Ash at first, which I think he was for awhile. We see Ash through Eiji’s eyes, so he’s inherently heroic and exotic. He is anyway, but again, I think he’d be much more of a villain if we didn’t have Eiji’s point of view. Because the relationship between them is so subtle, I didn’t pick up on anything other than concern and admiration between them, but that could also just be me being thick or used to these things being more visible. Eiji’s devotion to Ash in the second volume struck me as more of an obligation than anything else, like he felt guilty about what happened in the bar and wanted to make up for it. Even the kiss seemed like a dodge or tease rather than something more, though it did make me smile.
Khursten: It’s actually a style used in older shonen-ai stories. The first meeting is often a recognition of another’s existence, in a way how one is respectable to the other. Respect, admiration, and love is often almost blurred. As a BL fangirl, it’s almost unavoidable not to read ahead of myself just by seeing their first meeting. It was crazy and yet the respect was there. In the latter pages of the first volume, Eiji was in tears, a little helpless and yet moved by Ash’s and Skip’s effort to save him. I wouldn’t be surprised if many saw this as platonic, but there was a deep sense of respect. I don’t think it’s love just yet but the admiration was there. I don’t think it’s being dense. It was possibly Yoshida’s intention to make it ambiguous that way. For me, I found that teary moment heart wrenching and a prelude to something. Perhaps, an admission of Ash’s greatness. I can imagine some may think that it’s just a normal reaction when you almost died for a day. It’s crazy how a scene can be interpreted in many ways and maybe that’s the genius in this. You can see it in so many ways and in the end it’s still an exciting story to read.
Connie: I’ll admit, it was even harder for me to read Banana Fish as a BL story in these first two volumes than it was a shojo story, just because I’m still completely unfamiliar with a lot of the more action-oriented titles in that genre. And I also had no idea BL existed when I first encountered the series, so I probably wouldn’t have read anything into it at all had I started back then. The subtlety is definitely a mark in its favor, and I love the slow way the characters build up, especially Ash in these two volumes.
Michelle: I’m not reading it as specifically a BL or shonen-ai story at all. I know those things can be read into what happens, but I think it’s possible for two characters to be drawn together—to have synchronicity—and yet it not be romantic love, or at least not yet. So far, I haven’t read any of the moments between them as “preludes to something” romantic developing, but more like a strengthening of the immediate bond they’ve formed. I find it much more touching and meaningful that Ash entrusted Eiji with an important errand than the fact that he used a kiss to communicate the details.
MJ: I have a lot to say about Ash and Eiji’s relationship, but I think most of it is better saved for discussion of later volumes. I will say, though, that my thought when I first read these volumes was that I would be surprised to see Ash use anything sexual (including a kiss) as an earnest expression of love. Considering his experiences, I couldn’t imagine that he would associate those two things together at all. How could he have gone through all that and not come out permanently broken in that area? And I actually really appreciated Yoshida for not trivializing that.
Robin: As I said above, I originally discovered Banana Fish from a recommendation as BL with the caveat that it wasn’t intended as such. I’m waiting to see how that all progresses, but I think that the emotions right now don’t approach that level, and I doubt they ever will in the sense that it’s not a romance. BL is wrapped up in the romance genre for me, so no matter how integral a relationship may be to the plot, I don’t feel (thus far) that the point of the entire story we’re seeing is romance. It’s far more complicated than that. Not that I don’t put my slash goggles on, but so far I don’t see it as the focus.
I did want to say one thing about the shojo/seinen divide: to me, this series is seinen most obviously in the art style. I am a very visual reader (hence, why I like manga so much!) and reading this now it is even more clear just how seinen the art truly is. Eiji and Ash are both lookers, sure, but they’re seinen lookers. No willowy bodies and super-feminized faces here (and thank God!). I sometimes feel like I’m on a constant quest to find manga that do exactly what Banana Fish is doing — writing a shojo emotional story but side-stepping the character design and behavior tropes that can drive me insane in shojo. Believe me, I love a good shojo manga, but much in the way I get tired of conventions in any genre, I get tired of the sameness. I seek out titles like this that break the mold, and much of the manga I admire are the ones that eschew standard categories.
One other element that tweaked me to the shojo aspect of this series was the gay content. Yes, teenage hustlers and child porn are not exactly unheard of in gritty crime dramas, but somehow the details of how its discussed, and the casual acknowledgment of the realities of child rape, gayness, and potential male/male attraction in the midst of this world felt very manga-esque to me. I know of no other fictional output that we get here in the States that is so casual about this aspect of life, and certainly in our own media it’s always an ISSUE, not an integral part of a multi-layered story.
On a totally separate, superficial note, I just have to say: I ADORE the ‘staches. All those guys know how to rock a ‘stache.
MJ: I’m with Robin on the gloriousness of the ‘staches. A less successful fashion choice: Eiji’s ensemble for infiltrating Chinatown. Oh, 80s!
On a more serious note, Robin, I was hoping someone would mention the art. I especially look at the style of paneling as being unlike most post-49ers shojo with its neat right angles and matter-of-fact visual flow. It matches the tone of the manga overall, of course, and I kind of love that its able to be both unlike shojo and definitely shojo all at once. I think it’s a great example of how eclectic girls’ tastes truly are. It is a forthright acknowledgement of that fact, really.
Kate: Actually, the artwork reminds me a lot of Katsuhiro Otomo and early Naoki Urasawa. (Emphasis on early; Urasawa’s style evolved considerably from the time he made his professional debut in 1980s to the present, though lots of his signature touches are evident in works like Pineapple Army.) Compare Banana Fish with titles like Domu: A Child’s Dream and you’ll see that Yoshida’s figures, like Otomo’s, are solid and distinctive-looking, but they’re not always pretty — in fact, Yoshida aims for a mixture of naturalism and stylization that communicates a lot about her characters’ personalities.
Robin: MJ, just to say, I do love the fashion choices too. I particularly loved the off-the-shoulder, Flashdance Hawaiian shirt drape for Eiji. Oh, 80s. Never change. It’s still better than the high heeled dress shoes and poet shirts all over FAKE!
And Kate and MJ, the clean panels, the lack of experimental layout, and the character design all just scream seinen to me. Seinen, not shonen. I agree that Urasawa is a strong comparison (although his art, to me, is almost unparalleled in style) especially in how both artists strive for interesting faces rather than the by-rote beauty found in many shojo titles. I tend to zero in on faces more than body type, but you are absolutely correct, Kate, in how solid and realistic their bodies are.
Khursten: “in how solid and realistic their bodies are.” — I love them muscles in this series. Them big bulky muscles. >w<) And I also approve of the 'staches like you guys. In terms of style, it definitely is a little more androgynous, so to speak, in terms of sticking it in to a shojo or shonen genre. I just like to think that it’s a mature art style seen mostly in seinen titles. If we look at the paneling, it doesn’t even follow shojo‘s fluid panels and is really closer to seinen. When I was rereading this, I remember the Nausicaa manga since it has such a rigid paneling and the art’s like… watching a movie or Miami Vice. The Miami Vice came with all the detectives with suits and their floppy hair okay. We’re gonna have a discussion on clothes right?
MJ: This is sort of in response to Robin and Kate here and Khursten earlier, since Robin and Kate have both mentioned Yoshida’s distinctive (but not necessarily pretty) faces and Khursten mentioned how expressive the art is. I love the combination of those two things in this series–expression without idealization, perhaps? I think that just by itself helps to make the characters compelling. Just as flawed characters are more interesting (and, frankly, relatable) than “perfect” characters, so too are flawed faces. Perhaps it’s a personal thing, but I generally don’t appreciate physical beauty as much as I do distinction. Idiosyncrasy is at the core of love, at least for me.
Also, Khursten, YES, I want more talk of clothes. Not enough people have commented on this. :D
Khursten: Dammit, I love the undershirt and the floral overshirt on top. Catch the tie in the center for a very casual look. lol. It makes me laugh but I can believe that people dressed once like that. I wonder… do they have screen tones for cheeky shirt designs? They might have.
MJ: Considering some of the things I wore in the 80s, I can hardly point fingers at poor Eiji, but perhaps this is why I *must*!
Robin: Also, MJ, just to say — I’ve always been a girl who is much more attracted to people who aren’t classically beautiful. The truly symmetrical, god-like face doesn’t do much for me, but give me an striking nose, long eyelashes, sharp features (not to mention a great voice, intelligence, and a sense of humor), and I’m much more likely to exclaim over someone’s beauty. Barbie looks are pretty much the opposite of attractive to me.
The clothes felt like such a product of the time when it was written and the images of the US that must’ve been inspirational. It just feels so period to me, and that’s what makes it fun. It’s like watching The Breakfast Club and getting nostalgic.
MJ: Robin, I’m actually really glad you brought up the series’ “period” feel, because something that has always struck me about it is that, to me, it seems to mix a few periods together in a kind of late 20th century American stew. The clothes and hairstyles are gloriously 80s, but the language (as translated, at least) and cultural attitudes (especially within the gangs) often feel more to me like something from the mid-to-late 50s, circa West Side Story or Rebel Without a Cause. Meanwhile, the police are straight out of a 70s TV cop show. I expect this is due entirely to an outside view of American culture, but I find it intriguing.
Robin: MJ, I do see what you mean. The gangs, I think, while being more akin to the 1950s image, are also more urban than I feel like the stereotypes of 1950s toughs would allow, and thus a bit more diverse. The police force, of course, is completely out of 1970s cop shows, with a little bit of Hill Street Blues thrown in. I often find series like this, set in the US but created entirely outside of that experience, fascinating precisely because of what they get right and what they get fabulously wrong. Shorter’s mohawk is definitely late 70s, early 80s punk rebel.
MJ: I’m glad Robin brought up the specifics of the “gay” content, because to be honest, the one lingering issue I have with the series even now is that despite its appeal to BL fans, there is a pervading sense of homophobia which is present right from the start. Homophobia in BL manga is a huge topic on its own, but what I’m referring to right now is the fact that all the obviously gay characters we meet in the first two volumes are not only criminals, but also predators dealing in child prostitution and child pornograpy. Conflating pedophilia with homosexuality is a particularly hideous aspect of homophobia in my opinion, and though Ash’s experiences are all a part of real-world crime (as Robin mentions) I can’t quite dismiss the message being sent. I’m bringing this up now so that we can discuss it and be done with it, because I really love this series and I don’t want to dwell on a single issue. Is this something that bothers anyone else?
Robin: I completely understand your concerns, MJ. I have sensitive radar when it comes to this kind of storyline, and I do agree that it’s appalling when gayness and pedophilia are conflated. The way Banana Fish presents these topics gives me hope that none of the characters believe gayness in itself is a bad thing. It’s more that one, child prostitution and rape is wrong, and two, none of them seem particularly OK with Marvin and his particular tastes. Of course, Papa Dino is a relatively respected character who allows Marvin his assignations, and indulges himself in some variation thereof. I will reserve judgment until I see more how the positive characters treat the subject, and whether there is any sort of crowbar separating gayness from pedophilia.
I do agree that the tendency in Japanese manga for creators to never be clear about homosexual identity or how homosexual acts define a character is problematic for US readers, especially in how it’s mixed together with underage characters. In the United States we have more codified definitions of sexuality and tend to like to keep characters in expected boxes. Sometimes I can see the lack of a definition for gay identity in Japan as a reason for confusion… I don’t know that homosexuality and pedophilia are connected in Japanese perceptions of sexuality. I don’t know enough about how those definitions might inform fiction or fantasy. That’s a whole other level: these are fantasies, no matter how realistically they may be portrayed. Japanese creators, from what I’ve read in manga, have much freer rein to explore the darkest sides of sexuality and power dynamics, so I suppose I’m unsurprised to see such topics being explored here. What I can’t know until I read more is just how much of that will be offset by other characters or portrayals of sexuality and power.
Michelle: So far, I haven’t gotten the sense that homosexuality and pedophilia are being conflated here. More like… being a criminal leads you to do really horrible things to people and if you happen to be a gay criminal you do them to someone of your same gender. Again, we haven’t yet seen a gay person portrayed in a positive light, but who exactly would’ve fit that bill anyway? Even the straight people we’re seeing so far are mostly criminals. It’s not like if Shorter Wong is gay that he’s had time to mention it while saving Ash, y’know?
Khursten: Like Michelle, I didn’t feel this sense of homophobia. I actually think that it’s possibly just Yoshida’s way of making a delicious complicated background for her tragic hero, Ash. And I don’t mean delicious in a way that it’s a good thing but I think it’s a pattern for most BL writers to write a really impossible past to build the personalities of their characters because it’s delicious for their stories. It’s pretty and it makes their characters have this cool veneer of managing to stand up for themselves despite their tragic past. I honestly think that the homosexuality and pedophilia was just one of many things to explain why Ash does what he does in this series. At the same time, it described the people that surrounded him. I… don’t think Yoshida really thought of it beyond a plot device. Sexual ambiguity is a characteristic of Japanese culture. In fact, looking back at classical works and this, sometimes a character’s sex is not the issue but rather what’s important is the exposition of their personality and their psychology. I think it’s closer to that than really a sense of homophobia.
Kate: I’m always frustrated by manga artists’ need to “explain” their characters’ homosexuality, as if it were precipitated by a single event or unrequited love. In one book I read recently, for example, a character’s homosexuality was attributed to the fact that he couldn’t be with the one woman he truly desired, who just happened to be… his twin sister. (Dude, try online dating!) In Ash’s case, however, I think his behavior and self-image are consistent with the kind of abuse he endured at Marvin and Papa Dino’s hands. As MJpoints out, it would be natural for Ash to conflate aggression, manipulation, and sexual behavior, as he’s been punished and rewarded for being an object of these older, more powerful men’s desire.
Robin: Oh, Kate, you’re always so much more articulate that I am late at night. :) I definitely agree with both you and Khursten that Ash’s past is there to set up his behavior, and his reactions, especially in volume two when his past is brutally revealed to the cops he trusts, I feel like he acts true to his nature. I also think, at least for Ash, the key is the abuse more than that the perpetrators were men or that he hustled. In that sense, at least in my head, actual gayness doesn’t really enter into it (or at least not yet.) I keep flashing onto other reference points from other media (my brain is just one big mix of pop culture references, really, of epic proportions). If any of you have seen Mysterious Skin, the lead guy in that has a lot in common with Ash, and that film has a similar character arc in exploring his sexuality and abuse without ever choosing to put labels on him.
About Yoshida, just to ask — was she known for writing BL? Does she come from that world? Did people expect that from this series when it started? I guess I’d always gone forward with the knowledge that there was some homoeroticism, but I never got far enough to know if that ever went anywhere or was just the usual heated glances that never really amounted to much. And no, I’m not asking for spoilers, I’m more curious whether people would have gone into this story knowing it was BL.
Eva: Thanks for asking this question, Robin, as I was becoming confused, myself. Is Banana Fish BL or is it shojo? When reading volumes one and two I really didn’t get BL vibes at all. Yes, there are gay characters, yes there is a male/male kiss, but neither of these things automatically place a story into the BL box. (All you have to do is look at Yoshinaga Fumi’s Antique Bakery to see that this is true.) Khursten, you asked in the beginning if we all read these books in the context of shojo. I’d have to say that because of the non-stereotypical storyline and the non-shojo art, I’ve just been reading it as a story, without attaching a label to it. Just a story. And as a result, I’m not seeing the BL patterns you’ve suggested are there. I see a friendship building, I see Ash using sex as a tool to survive, I see Eiji blushing in confusion and embarrassment. But in the first two volumes I don’t yet see love. Not even the spark of love. Maybe it’s coming, and based on what everyone has said above, I won’t be surprised when it does, but I don’t see it yet.
Khursten: With regards to Robin’s question, at the time of Banana Fish, there was no BL magazine yet nor was the BL genre so separate from shojo manga. What they had was shonen-ai in shojo manga, and I think all of us know that this was all due to the 49ers who were also published in the same magazine as Yoshida which was Betsucomi. Hence, she was still considered a shojo mangaka but if I would trace the continuity from the 49ers (and the world owes the start of BL from them), then she was one of few who followed after their tradition. I haven’t had the chance to read her work before Banana Fish but I have read one of her works after Banana Fish, Yasha, which also had hints of a homosexual story between the two main male characters. Now, if you guys thought Banana Fish was gripping, wait ’til you guys have a chance to read Yasha. That’s one hell of a story. My friends who have read her other works like Lover’s Kiss also said it had homosexual elements too. I even heard that one of her earlier works had a lesbian theme in it.
For Eva, yeah, I have to apologize for my fujoshi vision. It’s like a strange gay-dar wherein I just have to catch a few elements and all of a sudden I’m just saying “God, they’re gay.” It’s bad enough that I have my fujoshi vision even in mangas like Slam Dunk and Case Closed so yeah… I would have to apologize for that now. It’s a vision born out of my fujoshi imagination. (Hence, the rotten girl. orz.)
MJ: I don’t want to give too much away, since several of our participants (and likely readers as well) are getting into this series for the first time. I can say, however, that though I don’t consider Banana Fish to be BL, I think the homoeroticism is deliberate. I’m glad that Khursten has followed the thread back to the 49ers, because that makes a lot of sense to me.
Robin: Just to say, Khursten, I don’t think it’s something you have to apologize for. I’ve been known to see homoeroticism in all manner of stories, intended or not! It’s a legitimate interpretation, and I think it just speaks to how much we bring to the story (and any story) as readers. I think both Eva and I were just wondering just how much the story was intended as such. In my head, BL has become a fairly rigidly structured subgenre, where romance and sexual attraction are key (not sexuality, per se, or identity, but romance.) I didn’t get that vibe from these first two volumes. I’m guessing as you’ve said that it’s much more like earlier shonen-ai works where there’s a whole lot of implications but not a romance in the classic, genre-defining way. I have no doubt that whatever is there was intended by the creator. Elements of homoeroticism are all over the place in manga, whatever the declared genre, and I’m not at all surprised to see it as part of the story. Still, homoerotic content does not make it BL or even shonen-ai for me.
I guess I agree with Eva in that I’m not reading it as a genre story, but as a story. It may become a genre story as it goes, but I find it more inclusive to not limit myself to thinking of it in any particular way at the beginning.
Michelle: I agree with Eva, as well. I have always been an entertainment consumer that accepted what I was given. I don’t need to know exactly what the relationship between two characters is, if it’s the way that it’s being portrayed that’s important. Does that make sense? If any of you have listened to the commentary musical to Dr. Horrible’s Sing-Along Blog, Joss Whedon sings a song about, essentially, fandom. “He told the story. What came before he didn’t show. We’re not supposed to [know].” So, it doesn’t matter to me if this really is BL or not. It’s a damn good story, and that’s all I really need.
MJ: “A damn good story” works for me, Michelle. :) On that note, we’ll wrap up this installment of “Breaking Down Banana Fish.” Many, many thanks to Michelle, Khursten, Connie, Eva, Robin, and Kate for the truly fantastic discussion and for indulging my deeply selfish desire get more people talking about this series.
Join us again in May as we return to discuss volumes three and four!
This was a wonderful discussion — smart, insightful and really, really funny. I think the conversation about genre (issues of BL versus Shojo) were particularly fascinating and also interesting in light of a certain resistance to read this as BL. (I don’t see that as a problem, as I for one will be the first to emphatically state that Antique Bakery is NOT BL).
For Eva, yeah, I have to apologize for my fujoshi vision. It’s like a strange gay-dar wherein I just have to catch a few elements and all of a sudden I’m just saying “God, they’re gay.” It’s bad enough that I have my fujoshi vision even in mangas like Slam Dunk and Case Closed so yeah… I would have to apologize for that now. It’s a vision born out of my fujoshi imagination. (Hence, the rotten girl. orz.)
Can I just say this is exactly how I experience so much entertainment these days? “Fujoshi vision” is a really apt way to describe it, as well. (My poor roommate has to listen to me talk about how House and Wilson are pretty much married every singe time we watch House). Also, it’s hard not to see it all the time when they started making many shonen jump series complete fujoshi-bait. (But that is probably a discussion for another time).
Anyway, this was a real pleasure to read. You all have done a wonderful job your first time out!
Danielle, I am *so* happy you enjoyed this (especially since you weren’t able to join us!) I keep rereading it, soaking in everyone else’s wisdom. :D
Ha! The funny thing is that I usually read this way, too. Slash is everywhere. Heck, I don’t even watch the show and I think House and Wilson are married.
I think because this is a special project, I’m trying to read the book that’s actually there and not the book it could be in my imagination. It’s harder than I thought it would be, but at least I’m not also fighting against the knowledge of what comes next in the story. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.
I think because this is a special project, I’m trying to read the book that’s actually there and not the book it could be in my imagination.
Interesting point…I think I feel freer to project my needs / desires onto the book in the NANA project roundtables because sometimes I think it is actually quite *productive.* In terms of engaging with the work on multiple levels, I guess. And as you comment, in that instance I am “fighting against the knowledge of what comes next.”
I suspect we’ll end up doing more of that as the series progresses, when there is more to do it *with* if that makes sense.
I think what was a struggle in this first installment, was figuring out how to keep things to the first two volumes, especially since a few people genuinely had not read any further. I don’t think we totally succeeded.
While I can definitely see that struggle here, I actually think it is a very “productive” tension, at in the amount of discussion it produced here concerning expectations of what the story will be versus how the story is actually being experienced by new readers.
I’m very glad you think so!
While I don’t have “fujoshi vision” in general, sometimes a particular pair of characters will strike me in a similar way. Like, say, Kurogane and Fai in Tsubasa RESERVoiR CHRoNiCLE.
That said, I really want to see Yoshinaga’s Slam Dunk doujinshi. :)
They’re awesome MitKo. I have a couple of images in something I’ve written before http://www.punkednoodle.com/champloo/2008/04/09/jump-history-and-fujoshi-4/
Oh, I’ve read that article before! I really don’t care much about Rukawa, but I do like Kogure. :)
Dude, I SO see that.
They are totally doing it.
;)
heh. See you have that one example but I could list 20 pairings off the top of my head. Although yes, I would give my left arm to see Yoshinaga’s Slam Dunk doujinshi.
This is why I used to write so much slash fanfiction. I’m just sayin’.
Oh, I also think Sirius and Lupin are in love. :)
THEY ARE.
True love in a shack, my friends. True love in a shack. (and even more so in the movie…and from what I understand, that’s how the actors were playing it anyway.)
I think that’s how Cuaron directed it too. I think he saw what we saw in the books.
Heh. I have so much love in my heart for Yoshinaga slashing her own character. The Antique Bakery doujinshi are almost, but not quite, too much information about the private lives of her characters.
And I suspect all those Prince of Tennis fans aren’t really in it for the tennis… ^_^
I once saw a little bit of the first one and had to look away because it felt so wrong to be spying on Ono’s trysts like that.
I actually *am* in it for the tennis, believe it or not, but I’m a huge sports manga fan. I have my favorites among the guys (Tezuka!), but don’t slash them. I know there’s a big Inui/Kaidou fandom out there.
Okay, I just have to say that what I love here? Is we’re still basically HAVING THE ROUNDTABLE. Only with Danielle included. This is how we will lure her into accidentally being a participant every time. :D
And this time I’m awake! Yay, team!
And *I* totally need to go to bed! But. Wah. People are talking!
Aaaaaaaand I totally jinxed it because now everyone has gone quiet. Ah well. Bedtime it is!
This is how we will lure her into accidentally being a participant every time. :D
Yeah, this is my incredibly overwhelming need to be included in all awesome things — you all are nice enough to put up with it! ;-)
Well you know, I wanted you to be included from the beginning, so it works for me! :D
Once you have this fujoshi vision, you just really can’t get rid of it. orz. Not that I’d want to get rid of it. At most, it’s an interesting perspective but not exactly to the liking of many. Thank god the girls here were very open about mine.
Well, I think we’ve all been there. :D
Danielle, I too am usually wearing my slash goggles (or fujoshi vision — same deal, really.) House and Wilson are certainly married in my head!
That being said, though, I think there is a tendency in US culture (and I fall into this trap) to think that any intimate friendship must be romantic or sexual. And yet, I’ve had many friendships myself that are just that close with no hint of sexual tension or desire. I find lately I try as much as possible to really see a work as it’s intended and enjoy the intimacy. I try at first to see what the creators intentions seem to be. I may well throw my slash goggles on anyway, for my own amusement, but I’m trying to train myself out of seeing it everywhere, a bit.
I think this describes my approach too, when I talk of accepting what’s there. I don’t think boffage necessarily follows from closeness; that’s one of the reasons I get kind of grumpy when folks talk about sexy shenanigans on the TARDIS, for example.
“I think there is a tendency in US culture (and I fall into this trap) to think that any intimate friendship must be romantic or sexual. And yet, I’ve had many friendships myself that are just that close with no hint of sexual tension or desire. I find lately I try as much as possible to really see a work as it’s intended and enjoy the intimacy.”
Right on. I think that for some reason our culture equates love with sex and doesn’t leave much room to explore other kinds of love, equally significant but different. It’s kind of sad that deep, real friendship doesn’t seem to have much of a place anymore, since I think it can be far more rare than sexual/romantic love.
Sometimes I wonder if the displacement of friendship love happens because English has one word (love) that we use to describe a number of things that other languages use different words for.
I second the notion that it’s okay to “enjoy the intimacy” without needing the relationship to be sexual/romantic. I think it’s the closeness that we crave, and our culture tells us that closeness can only be had with sexual intimacy. I like Banana Fish for coming in from another culture and saying you can have a really deep, meaningful connection with another person that doesn’t involve sex. That kind of closeness and intimacy has a redemptive aspect to that can make a broken life worth living.
I look forward to future Banana Fish breakdowns. Thanks for all your thoughts and opinions. I enjoyed them! :)
That kind of closeness and intimacy has a redemptive aspect to that can make a broken life worth living.
I think you’re absolutely right, and that this is not valued as much as it could be in the world.
In terms of shojo manga, I think it’s readers’ fantasy to want to make everything into romantic love… and I don’t know that I think that’s exactly a bad thing. I know that when I was a teen, however, really into reading, I’d had a lot of experience with friendship love and exactly none with romantic love (at least the requited kind), so that was the thing I most craved in my reading material. I think people will generally read into books what they need to get out of them, if that makes sense. Even for adults, I think romantic love is more likely to be something that’s been fickle and fleeting in our lives, so we idealize True Love as we see it portrayed in fiction.
Interesting points. :) I agree about people reading into books what they need to get out of them. How is True Love related to Platonic Love?
your first point about intimacy that is not romantic or sexual is well taken. I suppose I enjoy the queering of texts, but I also enjoy when the creators’ are winking a little at the audience. However, the other side of this is that if it’s just “winking” the creators’ have playing into the subtext without having to actually have gay or lesbian characters.
I find lately I try as much as possible to really see a work as it’s intended and enjoy the intimacy.
I think this is where the “winking” aspect comes in — today, many manga have subtext purposefully built-in. In other words, in some instances, it is the slash / fujoshi vision becomes the intended reading (not all instances, but more and more these days it seems).
and ur. that comment above was in response to Robin. I always mess this up…*sigh*
Oh indeed, when the creators (and actors, etc.) are winking, all the more fun. And I agree the bigger problem is that that won’t just GO THERE and do it for real on US TV. Or mainstream comics, for that matter. Except for a few (The Authority, Gotham Central, and so on.)
I’m still waiting for my cop show where the two (male) parters end up falling for each other.
Sorry in advance for the length of this comment (lots of stuff I wanted to say)!
I can’t really remember how I came about Banana Fish. I know it was after I became a fan of BL, because I know I only became an avid reader of manga at the same time that I became an avid reader of BL. I do know that I liked it (Banana Fish) immediately, and as a fan of BL, but not a fangirl, I was not bothered that the “BL” nature of the story never materialized. Much later in the series (and not to spoil too much) one of the characters sums up Eiji and Ash’s relationship in a way that I had felt, but could not have put into words myself while reading, that totally clicked for me: they do love each other, they may have always had, and yes, it was in a way nearly identical to that of “lovers,” but they were not lovers, they were friends. This is the essense of the “shonen-ai” pairing. This “love more than friends but not that of lovers,” and I think Yoshida pulled it off in a way that didn’t piss me off as a BL fan at all, and maybe these first few volumes were how she did it: putting in the little fan-servicey moments (the kiss, for example), but not expressing some sort of naked attraction between the leads that a fujoshi would gravitate towards and latch onto. In fact, I’d abandoned the idea that “romance” between these two characters was important at all to the story or to my own desire long before this explanation later in the series came to me.
However, and maybe my reading of Banana Fish had something to do with my ability to not “expect” BL in a shojo title, but when I was reading the serialized Do Whatever You Want at Netcomics, and all the fujoshi were griping that the “romance” wasn’t happening (and abandoning the series, to their loss), I couldn’t help but want to smack them over the head with the fact that the title wasn’t even listed as BL, it was listed as Drama, but that it didn’t matter either way, because the point was not the “romance” it was the “relationship.” That’s the essense of shojo. That’s the essense of what makes a story good, and what separates the throngs of fantasy wish-fulfillment in BL with actual quality storytelling.
I also want to touch upon something that has irked me since I heard about negative reactions to the film Chasing Amy’s “portrayal” of lesbians (the ones that shun the female lead because she sleeps with a guy): negative portrayals of homosexuals is not the same as a negative perception of homosexuality. Just because a guy is attracted to other men (or boys) doesn’t mean there is any link to the fact that he is also a horrible person. You can be (and many people in Banana Fish are without it) be a terrible person and NOT be a pedophile. I never read anything negative about “homosexuals” into the portrayals of these people in the story, particularly of the pedophiles, who were evil as pedophiles, not as homosexuals as far as I was concerned. I made the separation, probably unconsciously as I read, and never felt I was being shown any different.
For Kate, Aoi Hitsuji no Yume (or as you probably know it, Blue Sheep Reverie), is a strange beast of a title (and I am completely assuming your comments about the character who was “gay because he was in love with his sister” were about this series, so correct me if I was wrong). It was originally serialized in Bessatsu Hana to Yume (shojo), dropped after one volume and then picked up, years later, by a BL magazine, Karen. I’m honestly as flabbergasted by that particular “revelation” in volume one as you seem to be, because the words that come out of Ratri’s (Lahti, to you, probably) mouth are in complete contradiction to his character throughout the rest of the series, and I have to wonder if that is a result of the fact that the series was originally intended for a shojo audience and therefore thrown in for “dramatic effect” or that Tateno indeed had something in mind at the time, but we may never know as so many years passed between the first and second volumes, and she took the story in another direction (a distinctly BL one) when she did. I’m reminded of a conversation I had with the fellow maintainer of the LJ community for this series (it’s also the comm. for Steal Moon, which exists in the same universe) about this very subject. I think her words (third paragraph) sum it up pretty well. Not that I am defending a flaw in logic, as I said I’m flabbergasted about this line. It seems in existence more for its intended shock value to the reader than in something that was actually able to be explored at all later in the series (in fact, in volume two the entire line is completely refuted by the very person who uttered it in volume 1). But that discussion might be a little too off-topic for the Banana Fish Roundtable. ^_^
In conclusion I am totally stoked for the next roundtable. Can’t wait to talk more about this series!
but when I was reading the serialized Do Whatever You Want at Netcomics, and all the fujoshi were griping that the “romance” wasn’t happening
That makes me so sad! One of my favorite things about that series is that it refuses to be a straight-out romance story. The characters are all confused about their attractions and undecided about who they are… I think it’s much more true to the teen experience than most romance.
negative portrayals of homosexuals is not the same as a negative perception of homosexuality
This is true. But I think that in our society, where being gay just by itself is still considered to be an abomination by a large segment of the population, it can be really disheartening and often offensive when, in a single work, all or most of the gay characters are portrayed in a negative light. Since the vast majority of the characters are usually straight, there is almost always a balance between those who are characterized as “good” or “bad” (and everything in between). If there are only a few gay characters, and they are heavily weighted to the negative side, that can easily be seen as a judgement on their sexuality. Do you see what I mean? It isn’t necessarily so, but it’s sensitive, no matter how you look at it. I think it has to be at least considered.
Thank you *so* much for coming around and participating in comments! I’m thrilled you’re enjoying the roundtable!
I get why people are sensitive about it, but it still irks me when folks try to read farther into an author’s intentions than is really there. I never got the feeling from Yoshida that she was ever making a “judgement” about homosexuality. Ash and Eiji’s relationship, despite being non-sexual in nature, is the sort of “way too close to just be ‘friends'” that someone who was truly homophobic wouldn’t write to begin with.
I think the simply unfortunate thing about Banana Fish (for the overly-sensitive, that is) in this regard is that one of the major, and well-explored, aspects of the story is the tragic past (child prostitution) of one of the male leads. It’s so central to the story, all the way through, that we aren’t going to be able to help that there are many negative portrayals of men who have engaged in such “activities.” And it doesn’t mean they are “gay,” either. Studies have shown that most pedophiles do not regard themselves as “homosexual,” even if the homophobic people around them use words like “gay” to describe them.
Such descriptions in Banana Fish could be more of an observation of how people at the time perceived pedophilia and not a negative judgement of homosexuality in a literal way.
Thanks for the background on Blue Sheep Reverie, Cait; I can see how its publication history may have had a big influence on that odd, out-of-character revelation! (And boy, was that a doozy.) My real point is that in a lot of the BL I’ve read, authors frequently feel the need to explain a character’s homosexuality (or turn to homosexuality), instead of simply treating it as a basic fact of the character’s identity.
I agree that it is something that shouldn’t need to be “explained,” but I think in Japan they think about sexuality a little differently. There hasn’t been a movement there like here to make sure people know it really isn’t a choice or “caused” by something (like trauma), it’s just how people are (not that everyone believes it anyway, but there was indeed a PC movement towards it).
In BSR (abbreviating, bear with me) that statement would have bothered me a lot as well if I hadn’t read volumes 1 and 2 back to back, which I assume you haven’t yourself. Tateno seemed to take an interest when she was allowed to continue the series years later to actually fix that little problem (hell, it’s even reworded to make a lot more sense when Kai repeats the memory of it to himself at the beginning of volume 2).
I completely agree with your mild frustration about how fangirls get disappointed about the lack of sex for it to be counted as BL. (I’ve struggled through some crap where a girl whines about Kinou Nani Tabeta by Fumi not having sex between the two gay characters. And they’re really gay.)
And you’re right. As I said in this piece, this follows after the tradition of the classic shounen-ai, the BL ascribed to the 49ers. And in many ways, for me, it’s really the intense friendship between Ash and Eiji that carries me on as a fujoshi. For all the beautiful things they’ve left unsaid. BUT HEY THIS IS JUST VOLUMES 1 and 2! >A<)9 I CAN'T WAIT FOR MAY!
I CAN’T WAIT FOR MAY!
Neither can I. :D
I haven’t read Banana Fish and have no desire to, but I enjoyed reading about it.
Totally tangentially, but I was so struck by your comment about needing to know what genre a manga is before reading it. I hadn’t ever thought about how…unobvious that is for readers of translated manga. Reading in Japanese, it is impossible to not know what genre a manga is, because that is the way things are organised. You go to the bookstore and things are not shelved alpha by author, they are shelved first by shounen/shoujo/seinen/ladies, with those four categories subdivded by publisher, further subdivided by magazine, and then finally alpha by author.
Heh, yeah, here they just shove ’em all together on the same shelf, usually alphabetical by title. Some of the publishers make it obvious by using different imprints, but something like Banana Fish, for example, was shuffled around between a couple of imprints with wildly different demographic expectations, so only the fact that it finally landed in their “shojo” imprint (where it finally got a full run) would give readers a real clue. Interestingly, some of the “shojo” vols are out of print now, so lots of people have collections mixed between the two.
I’m very glad you enjoyed this!
I read Banana Fish for the first time last year and loved it, and I’m thrilled to see this round table about it! (previously I just wrote my own obsessive recaps and then stalked Connie as she read through it more recently…)
The discussion about genre was really interesting. I’m another person who’s had a lot of trouble getting into the standard shoujo art style, and I really liked Yoshida’s more straightforward panelling and beefier character designs. And, despite being a fan of slash fiction, I again haven’t liked a lot of BL stuff (art, plot, gender roles), so the intense but not necessarily sexual connection between Ash and Eiji really worked for me.
One additional thing I wanted to mention was Yoshida’s plotting, which I think is very strong – the first 20 pages of volume 2, for example, include a ridiculous amount of events as well 2 character deaths (I hope this is vague enough for discussion), neither of which is entirely unexpected in the long term but which both seem to come a lot earlier than anticipated. This sort of plotting, plus the overall rapid pace, mean that I end up convinced of the necessity of some bits which in hindsight seem ridiculously convoluted – Ash’s method of getting a message to Eiji, for example, which struck me as a plan with any number of problematic elements.
(and Khursten – I started listening to Gackt because I found out he did a song inspired by Banana Fish, so I’m deeply amused to hear you went the other way)
And, despite being a fan of slash fiction, I again haven’t liked a lot of BL stuff
I can *really* relate to this. I’ve managed to find some BL I really like, but it has been a struggle.
Also, I really like your comments on plotting here. The pace and plotting are some of the things I like best about the series, too, and I think Yoshida works hard enough to earn some of the less believable elements, as you say. Hee.
I took a quick look at Jan’s comment thread below, because I was about to ask the same thing about what BL you liked – I liked est em’s Seduce Me After the Show, but wasn’t wild about Yoshinaga’s Ichigemme (I think I probably should have stopped after the first volume, because not liking the second one put me off the first a bit).
Let Dai I flicked through in a bookshop, and was unsure if I wanted to spend that much time with such an unlikeable lead, particularly if I was expected to be fascinated with him. To veer back towards topic somewhat, I’ve read a number of books about prodigiously talented pretty boys with angsty pasts, written by authors who are deeply in love with their emotional complexity, and most of the time they just leave me wanting to slap anyone involved. Ash (and Dorothy Dunnett’s Lymond, for a nonmanga example) are very rare exceptions.
(in other mildly BL-ish stuff, I do like Loveless, although I’d find it difficult to justify, and I’m also enjoying Silver Diamond)
Just to be clear, I definitely did not recommend Let Dai. Heh. I just said I had no issues with the BL content. I think the story itself has many, many issues (though it’s pretty addictive when you get into it). I did a full series review here.
I really love a lot of other Korean BL, though, such as U Don’t Know Me, Totally Captivated, and Roureville, and (for something not-quite-BL more along the lines of Banana Fish) One Thousand and One Nights. :)
I will take your not-a-rec on board!
I haven’t read any manhwa yet, but your reviews look very tempting – especially for One Thousand and One Nights, which I think I’ve heard about before, but the others look interesting too. Plus, some of these are available to buy on-line, right? At the moment I get most of my manga from a shop 3000km away, which is possibly not the most convenient option (although it does cut down on impulse buying!).
Yes, all of them can be bought online, and all the NETCOMICS series can be read online as well!
One Thousand and One Nights is really a special favorite of mine. It hits all the right buttons for me.
Just to chime in, rather late, I too am a big fan of One Thousand and One Nights. It’s a rich, beautiful series, and I love how much the creators play with traditional stories and familiar themes to create something else.
Ack! I feel horribly responsible for starting this Let Dai derail. Just to clarify, I read your review and am kind of interested in its crack-y trainwreck quality even though it sounds like I’ll hate the protagonist! There are definitely many worthier titles, BL or otherwise, in the review archive you linked.
Hee! No worries. Actually, I think it was inevitable that Let Dai would come up at some point in a discussion of BF, considering how often they are compared to each other. I just wanted to make sure nobody got the idea that I would recommend it! Which is not to say I didn’t enjoy it. As you’ve seen from my review. :D
Oh, and (not Korean, not actually BL but similar to Banana Fish) I also reeeaally love Wild Adapter.
I read v1 of Wild Adapter and it didn’t grab me, but I’d just completely failed to like Saiyuki (I read up to volume 2 of Reload) and there might have been some bleedthrough dislike from the very similar character designs (I think her art’s great, but I have problems with the characters). I might give it another go.
I like Wild Adapter much more than Saiyuki (it really picks up in vol. 2 btw). Of course, I’d read WA first, so I kept waiting for Saiyuki to grab me the same way and it never did.
This is very useful to know, as all the other recs I’ve had are from people who *loved* Saiyuki. I will add it to my entirely non comprehensive mental list of things to look out for in bookstores/libraries.
Ha! I was going to bring up Wild Adapter at some point, as it totally seems to vibe with Banana Fish, in my head. I enjoyed Saiyuki, but I didn’t love it. I did, however, love Wild Adapter (And it’s all due to Melinda!)
Wild Adapter is, in fact, actually BL; it was published in Chara Comics, which is a BL mag. It’s just an (apparently permanently) unconsummated relationship.
Like Robin, I personally would never use the term “BL” to describe something outside the romance genre, regardless of where it was published. But don’t you think it’s a bit premature to make a permanent call on their relationship when the series is not yet complete? And if you’ve read ahead in scans, please don’t spoil me.
1) I haven’t read ahead, but so far it’s not going anywhere. :)
And I do think that the relationship angle is important to WA, both in terms of Kubota and Tokitoh and for the emphasis on the relationships of the various subsidiary characters.
2) BL is a publishing category as well as a genre. In Japan, WA is labeled, marketed and sold as BL; it’s shelved in the BL section in bookstores and cross-promoted with other BL titles; it’s not treated as any different from the soppy-romance style of BL. The fact that something is published under a BL imprint will almost always override any content considerations.
Also, the idea that BL is always a romance-novel style romance is a bit of an artifact of the works that US publishers have chosen to translate. Particularly in the 90’s, dark gritty stories with relatively subdued romance elements were popular (e.g., Rika the Breeder, West End, A Cruel God Reigns), and even today a significant proportion of stories are not purely romances.
I’m not refuting any of that. But language exists for communication, and I think that just calling WA “BL” when discussing it with readers in the US ends up being misleading. It not only sets up unrealistic expectations for regular BL readers, but it also fails to effectively describe the series for readers who are not into BL. I think it’s very telling that Tokyopop does not publish this under their BL imprint. We can argue about the use of the term in Japan forever, but the bottom line is, it resembles almost no other BL published in English. In fact, the reason I even brought it up here at all is that the series it *most* resembles out of any I’ve read is Banana Fish. I would recommend it to someone who likes Banana Fish. I would probably not recommend it to someone who reads primarily English-translated BL. I’d love to see US BL publishers put out series that challenge the current usage of the term in English, but so far that hasn’t happened.
I see your points, although I don’t entirely agree. In general, I like to use Japanese terms in the same sense that they are used in Japan, since otherwise it just causes confusion.
I would note that Tokyopop routinely releases its less-explicit BL titles under its main imprint, reserving BLU mainly for the more mature titles. Presumably this has to do with BLU having more restricted bookstore access, as well as potentially being able to sell to a broader audience if the title isn’t labelled as BL.
See, that’s exactly my point. I think the “bookstore access” argument applies to accessibility of content as well. I think Tokyopop’s got the right idea with WA.
Oh, and just to spam you with more responses (and veer closer to our original topic, as you did), I’ve had issue with Let Dai being referred to often as “the Korean Banana Fish,” because, unlike Banana Fish, Let Dai asks me to love a sociopath. It’s also not nearly as well-written. It’s fun and addictive, but a guilty pleasure at best. Frankly, none of the series I’ve mentioned come close to Banana Fish in terms of writing. I think that’s part of why I’ve never lumped the series in with BL at all… it’s too good.
Oh really!?! I didn’t even know that (or what song for that matter… lol. I’m not even that into Gackt now. I just like hearing stories about him ‘cos he’s really a funny guy.) Would you happen to know the title of the song?
I also heard that in a way he took after Ash from Banana Fish to do his acting in Moon Child. I don’t know how true that is… but I suppose it’s awesomecakes.
Hey, I think I actually know this! I believe the song is called “Aslan’s Dream.”
Yes, here’s where I read about that!
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! OMG! OMGGGGG!! I DID NOT KNOW IT WAS THAT SONG!!!
Totally laughing at the edge of my seat now. XDDDDD
Thanks a lot for the great find! XDD
Obviously it all makes sense now :) It’s on the album Mars, or you can get to it from the site Melinda linked to.
And I haven’t seen Moon Child – good? bad? both??
It’s so bad… it’s good!
I’m so excited to read posts by other people who are excited about Banana Fish! :)
I got into the series when I worked for a small-town comic shop; the owner had had the first few volumes of the second edition sitting untouched on his shelves for ages. I started reading in a fit of curiosity and ended up buying the entire series as it came out. (The wait for new volumes was absolutely agonizing toward the end, especially since I was always worried that Viz would just put it on hiatus for selling poorly!)
It’s funny that so many people seem to have gotten accidentally addicted to the series. It was pretty crushing, though, when I’d loan the first volume out to a friend and fail to hook them. Usually, I’d get some version of “no thanks, the art is stiff and ugly,” presumably because of all the hot 80s ‘staches and the lack of screentones pouring out of every panel. It’s a real shame, especially since the relative unpopularity of even this classic series means that no publisher is going to take a chance on Yoshida’s other works. I know absolutely nothing about them, but if they’re half as good as Banana Fish, I’d be all over them in English.
Melinda, regarding the comment just above mine, I’m curious as to which BL series you really like, if only to broaden my horizons a little. I’ve enjoyed a few titles as, erm, guilty reads, but even the ones that play with the tropes a little are still pretty full of them in a way that makes me feel uncomfortable as a reader. I admit that when I first read Banana Fish, I did recognize the enormous slash-y potential, but the relationship between Ash and Eiji appealed to me in my late teens precisely because (as I read it) Yoshida never really pinned it down one way or the other.
Anyway, thanks for this amazing panel! Hopefully it’ll push a few people to give the series a try — assuming the volumes are still available anywhere.
For folks looking to buy copies of Banana Fish, I found that Robert’s Anime Corner had many of the early, hard-to-find volumes that Amazon didn’t. eBay is also a really great source for finding sets.
Wow — I’m glad my assumption was wrong! This means that no one has an excuse to avoid reading the manga.
Hey thanks for passing on that tip, Kate!
Jan, off the top of my head, I’d recommend Future Lovers (Saika Kunieda) and Ichigenme… The First Class is Civil Law (Fumi Yoshinaga). Also, anything by est em, especially Age Called Blue and Red Blinds the Foolish. I also really like a lot of Korean BL. They don’t necessarily avoid all the less desirable Japanese tropes, but all the series I’ve read have been a lot more readable in terms of “gender” roles (my biggest beef with yaoi) than most Japanese BL. If you scroll to the bottom of this page you can find links to all my BL reviews for specifics. :)
Thanks for the suggestions! I’d heard about Let Dai before (including the “Korean Banana Fish” comments), but I was a little hesitant because of some bad experiences with Netcomics’s translations and lettering choices with certain series; maybe I’ll give it a shot. Re: Fumi Yoshinaga: I love Ooku, but after struggling through Gerard and Jacques, I dismissed her yaoi as “evidently not for me.” I’ll give Ichigenme a chance.
The est em stuff sounds right up my alley, though — I have a feeling I’m going to be a starving student this week so as to place another Book Depository order. :)
And thank you for your kind words about my blog! I used to fill my all-purpose sketchblog with rant-y reviews, but after I started to pen more thoughtful commentary, it seemed about time to move to a new location and make a real go of it. Of course, it also gives me an excuse to splurge on comics!
Jan, I felt exactly the same way about Gerard and Jacques, but I actually liked Ichigenme quite a bit. Ditto for The Moon and Sandals and Solfege, two other Yoshinaga works. I’d also heartily second Melinda’s recommendation for Red Blinds the Foolish and Seduce Me After the Show.
I love The Moon and Sandals very very much as well. And I appreciate Solfege for actually making a good story out of the whole student/teacher thing.
Just to jump in here, I agree with all of these suggestions! I enjoy BL perhaps more than others here, but I also struggle with all of the myriad off-putting aspects of it. The titles that everyone has listed above are all worth checking out. Gerard and Jacques is definitely it’s own thing, and Yoshinaga’s other BL is much more appealing, IMHO.
Future Lovers is adorable.
Although it is high school students, I also very much enjoyed Tea for Two by Yaya Sakuragi — it avoids most of the most egregious issues in BL, and manages to be sweet, humorous, and romantic.
I like Tea for Two, though it’s one of those stories where I like the secondary couple more than the primary one.
Huh. I’m the opposite on that series — I prefer the main couple. Just goes to show how tastes differ!
I think it’s possible I prefer the second couple simply because they are adults. Heh. I find them immediately more interesting.
I also just got my print edition of Age Called Blue, and that’s inching ahead as my favorite est em title.
Hey, I’m quoted on the back cover of that! :D
Wow! Awesome. I’d read it online a while back, but I admit, I like have the print copy. :)
I have issues with Gerard and Jacques as well, so be assured that Ichigenme is very different. :)
I have plenty of issues with Let Dai but at least none of them have to do with the BL content. Heh.
Ichigenme’s my favorite of her BL works. It strikes a balance of her humor and… stuff. It also has my favorite panel from her! :3
Aw, now I want to know which panel. :D What page is it on?
ps: your blog looks awesome! I’m adding to my Google Reader right now! :D
“I will say, though, that my thought when I first read these volumes was that I would be surprised to see Ash use anything sexual … how could he have gone through all that and not come out permanently broken in that area?”
I consider myself to not be the best person to bring up this point, since I have never suffered sexual abuse. However, I found the above a little disturbing.
I know a guy who had never told his girlfriend that he was raped, even though it was one of the most important events in his life. He didn’t say why he held back this piece of information from one of the most significant people in his life. But I read between the lines that he’s afraid that she will think that he is too permanently broken to be a good sexual partner. Considering society’s attitudes towards rape victims, I think his fear is justified.
Since we’re talking about fictional characters here, I think it needs to be okay to speculate about things like this. That’s what we’re here for. And for the record, I wouldn’t make that speculation about most anyone who had been raped. Ash wasn’t just raped, he was repeatedly raped, over and over again as a child, used as a prostitute and as fodder for child pornography, all the while being kept captive with hordes of other children, most of whom had been made into junkies. How could anyone suggest that wouldn’t have a long-lasting effect?
I don’t necessarily think (and didn’t say) he’s “too permanently broken to be a good sexual partner.” I just think he has never had any reason to associate sex with love. He’s been having sex since he was a child and it’s never, ever had anything to do with love. Even as we read the first two volumes, we see him use sex only as a tool… just something necessary to survive. I stand by my statement in the round table.
I never suggested that it woundn’t have a long-lasting effect. And I’m not uncomfortable with your *surprise*. I agree that he often uses sex as a tool. However, since you don’t specify what you mean by ‘area’ when you say “how could he have gone through all that and not come out permanently broken in that area?” I think it’s too easy to interpret that as he is permanently unable to express and experience love sexually, even if that is not your intention.
However, I am still uncomfortable with discussing this myself because I do not know what it is like to be raped, and I don’t want that non-knowledge to make me mess up (indeed, I’m a little afraid I have already messed this up in a way I am not aware). So at this point, I just have to agree to disagree with you.
Again, we’re talking about fictional characters here, and I think it’s okay (actually, in this roundtable I think it is even our *job*) to delve into their psyches without having experienced everything they have. They have been created by a single mind for us to interpret from the text given. They are man-made. Probably my perspective on this is influenced by the fact that, as a former professional actor, it used to be my job to get inside the heads of characters who were very different than I am and who had different experiences than I. As an actor you have to read the text and make choices from what’s given, no more, no less. We’re doing the same thing here.
As for my statement, I think in context it says exactly what I mean. I’ll probably elaborate on it more as we get further into the series, but with so many people just starting for the first time, I don’t want to make sweeping statements referencing the series as a whole at this point, which is why I phrased it the way I did for now. For the moment, all I’ll say is that I believe the text of the manga supports my statement.
The most important part of what I said, though, and the point I really wanted to make, is that I really appreciate Yoshida for not trivializing Ash’s experiences by pretending that they *wouldn’t* affect him. I think many, many mangaka are guilty of trivializing rape by making it into a romantic sexual fantasy. Over and over again, characters fall in love with their rapists (who, you know, aren’t really bad people, they just couldn’t express their feelings *eyeroll*). Yoshida does not do that. She does not give Ash this horrifying history of sexual abuse and pretend that it’s romantic or inconsequential. She demonstrates how it has affected him and shows us how he uses sex in his own life, now that he’s grown up. It’s in the text. That’s the character she’s created. Frankly, I’m grateful for it.
I also think that Yoshida did the right thing by not trivializing the issue. I probably underestimate the prevalence of manga with the ‘rape isn’t that bad’ meme because I am very good at avoiding such material.
If I thought it was wrong to bring up this point, I would not have brought it up. In fact, I think is important for many people to discuss this. I am simply trying to do it in a way which would not cause harm to people who have been raped, while at the same time pointing out that I may not know how to do that. And if we lived in a world where nobody had to go through what Ash goes through – a world I would very much like to live in – I would agree with the it-is-fiction argument. However, while Ash is fictional, experiences similar to his are, sadly, not.
If instead of saying “How COULD he have gone through all that and not come out permanently broken in that area?” you had said “How DID he go through all that and not come out permanently broken in that area?” I would not have had a problem.
“How DID he go through all that and not come out permanently broken in that area?”
Except he didn’t. This is what I’m saying. I’m not talking about all people who have been raped or even all people who have been horribly abused throughout their childhoods. I’m talking about Ash Lynx and only Ash Lynx. I worded it the way I did, “I’d be surprised if…” because I didn’t want to spoil everyone by saying conclusively that he is damaged, but I feel like you’re forcing me into it.
My recollection of Banana Fish is actually quite fuzzy. I think we are in the middle of mutual misinterpretation rather than an actual disagreement, and I think my fuzzy recollection is causing a lot of the misinterpretation, so I am going to drop the topic.
I think you have a very good point. :) Plus, you’re one of my favorite regular readers so I hate to feel that we’re at odds!
I know this round-table is super old, but I just started reading this series and am loving it: the mystery, the moustaches, the barely sublimated homoeroticism… “Ash was just letting me fire his gun.” Haha, what a great read – glad people talked enough about this one for me to bother hunting it down (just wish it wasn’t out of print!).